Entrepreneurs for Impact (EFI) Podcast: Transcripts
#97:
How This Climate VC Investor Decides Which Founders to Back — Jason Holt, Partner at Baruch Future Ventures
Chris Wedding:
Jason Holt, partner at Baruch Future Ventures, welcome to the podcast.
Jason Holt:
Thanks for having me.
Chris Wedding:
Well, as we pressed record here, you were commenting that the weather out in Marin County, just North of the Bay is 40 degrees cooler than last week. That's quite the swing, which certainly says a lot about what last week was, which says a lot about what you do at Baruch Future Ventures I think, huh?
Jason Holt:
Yeah. It all ties together. A constant reminder.
Chris Wedding:
For you, if I recall from past chats, this is not, of course, like a new interest of yours. If our friend LinkedIn is accurate, we're talking about 27 plus years perhaps, combining PhD, chemical engineering meets investor, entrepreneur, et cetera. So, it's been a journey, but not a short one, I suppose, eh?
Chris Wedding:
No, it actually goes back even prior to graduate school, research that I did as an undergrad in atmospheric chemistry. I had the fortune of working with someone who would become a Nobel laureate while I was in his research group. He was the one that discovered the link between CFCs and ozone degradation and working in that group really planted the seed in my head of staying in the climate sustainability space in one form or another for the ensuing two plus decades.
03:52
Chris Wedding:
Yeah. I recall the link between the CFC and ozone, pretty influential in my formation as an environmentalist decades ago as well. I mean, lucky for you, you were in his lab to allow for him to become a Nobel laureate, I'm sure. Right?
Jason Holt:
Yeah, that's a correlation without causation.
Chris Wedding:
Totally. I was thinking, “Which of those C's is that?” Yeah. Well, how about to start, give us the pitch, man. You hear all kinds of pitches. Give us the pitch on Baruch Future Ventures.
Jason Holt:
Sure. We skew pretty early. We do pre-seed through sometimes Series A investments, basically any company that can impact climate and resources utilization, high level, it kind of falls into four buckets, energy, air, water, and food and ag. What we see as the four critical resource areas, but we also think about our investments organize them around thematic categories as well.
One of which is this idea of renewables to X, or some people call it power to X, but it's the idea of taking what is now very cheap renewable energy, the cheapest form of energy on the planet, and using that to decarbonize heavy industry, or traditionally hard to decarbonize sectors, which can include things like steel, for which we have a portfolio company tackling that. As well as cement and other commodity chemicals like ammonia production for fertilizer.
Occasionally, there's a few examples of this where we'll be involved in company incubations. If we see a problem where there are no startups addressing it, currently, we'll reach out to our network with some of the subject matter experts we work with, who we think could be good founders of a future venture and try to help assemble that team and provide some catalytic capital to help get it off the ground. So, we did this most recently in the bio-based pigments area. Everything from company inception to Series A basically is where we target.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, so I think for some folks listening, the whole company co-creation may sound like a venture studio of sorts. I don't think I know too many venture investors who also will incubate their own companies. I don't know, how rare is that? Or maybe I just don't know enough people.
Jason Holt:
Yeah, I'm not as familiar with the venture studio model. I know there's a handful of colleagues of mine, I think, have recently joined those organizations. But especially for a small outfit like us, which is just a handful of people, there's a limit to the number of incubations that you can do.
Chris Wedding:
Totally.
Jason Holt:
You can't be keeping track of your existing portfolio companies and managing your pipeline while at the same time doing a lot of company starts. But I think that's why if we're going to go down that path, we're pretty particular about who we reach out to, look for seasoned executives who've got some really targeted experience in the industry of interest to get these things off the ground.
07:29
I do know that at Breakthrough Energy, which is a very close collaborator of ours, they've done some of this as well, of the few companies that they've essentially developed in-house. Of course, they’ve got a lot more resources at their disposal.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, something like that. I want to connect a couple of dots. So, right this second, I'm teaching the second cohort of an online class called Fund Your Climate Tech Startup, which I currently run through Maven. And so, it's like pre-seed stage companies figuring out what's the right kind of capital, how to reach the right kind of investor, what terms make sense.
A couple of common questions come up, and I can imagine many listeners also fall in that same boat. So, here we have a fund manager in our midst. You're cornered, Jason. One of the questions is, how in the world do they get ahold of you? It's one thing to like, okay, here's an email, but you get lots of cold emails. What grabs your attention or is the inbox just so dang full that you can only, quote unquote, pay attention to those that come through folks you know, so they're somewhat vetted already?
Jason Holt:
I mean, it's really the latter. I think the strength of the connection, it can be an imperfect heuristic for figuring out if something is worth taking the meeting on, but it's one thing that I think we just pragmatically have to rely upon because we get hundreds of emails per day. It's a really challenging triage process and oftentimes, yeah, a large proportion of that will come from intermediaries or brokers. Unless it's one with whom we've had a long-established relationship with, those things generally tend to be high noise, low signal for us. It’s not easy and there's certainly things that have slipped through the cracks on us that we wish there had been a better mechanism for flagging those things for us.
Chris Wedding:
Sure. How about as folks, as a founder comes through a trusted mutual connection, what do you like to see from them versus not see from them and say, initial materials? Is it a teaser, is it a website, is it a 10-slide pitch, is it a video talk over on a pitch? What's that kind of first entry point for you-all to make the next assessment?
Jason Holt:
Yeah, I mean, it's nothing too out of the ordinary. There’s one tool that we particularly like and unfortunately not a whole lot of companies, even the early-stage ones go through the discipline of preparing these. We’re big advocates of a business model canvas, which has been used pretty extensively in the I-Corps program, initiated at NSF.
We, in fact, invested in a small amount in a very early-stage fund that was specifically focused on those companies that have been through the NSF I-Corps program. But what we like about the Business Model Canvas is that it lays out nine key areas, all of the things that essentially need to come together for a business to be successful. It articulates what are all the assumptions a founder is making about their business and their business model. Who are the key partners of theirs? What does the partner ecosystem look like? What are their potential sources of revenue and cost? And most importantly, right smack in the center of it is the key value propositions. Is the company solving a problem or is the technology nice to have or is it a must have? That kind of thing.
11:45
So, even if someone doesn’t present us a canvas, what we look for is a deck or executive summary or whatever it might be that at least articulates those same key facets to the business so we can quickly evaluate if it makes sense to take a meeting.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah. I'm a fan of that canvas as well. There's another version, I wonder if you-all have thoughts on equally as good, better, worse, but the Lean Canvas, you-all see that as well or?
Jason Holt:
Yeah, I think in fact, you flagged it for me and we started pushing that out to some of our portfolio companies and the ones that are in our pipeline because there were features of that that I think were even more useful, especially to climate tech companies since – Like the BMC, I've seen it used a lot in the software space and areas outside of where we invest, but I think the Lean Canvas was even better suited for the kinds of ventures that we're interested in.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, I totally agree. It feels more intuitive for a startup versus the Business Model Canvas, which it's fine. You got to start somewhere for sure with that BMC years ago and now being adapted to different uses. I know on your website, you talk about three investment criteria. I wonder if you could just talk through what that looks like in practice. I think there was tech and team and maybe market, which I think about as maybe TAM or something. Maybe just walk through how you all start to make decisions, first cuts, second cuts, et cetera, around the right companies for you all to invest in.
Jason Holt:
Yeah. I think at a first pass, it's team, market and technology in that order. One of the big learnings for me going back 10 years when I first started working with my colleague, Tom in his family office was I had inverted that order. Being a technologist, I naturally would gravitate towards understanding the ins and outs of the tech to start even including digging through patents and prior art, et cetera, which certainly satisfied my intellectual curiosity, but from a workflow point of view, it's not sustainable. Because the name of the game is getting to quick nos.
Fortunately, if you're doing this right, obviously you're saying no 90 plus percent of the time. And I generally found that if you start with evaluating the team, and then secondarily the market opportunity and last the tech, that gets you there much faster. On the team, obviously these are people that we worked with in a prior venture, got to a successful exit, that's a nice check in that box. But by and large, if we're looking at very early-stage opportunities, these may be folks that are fresh out of grad school.
I think really the main thing we look forward there, absent to any prior entrepreneurial or operating experience would be coachability, receptiveness to some of the advice that we will inevitably throw their way over time. There are some deals we've had where we've passed on what might otherwise be very interesting from a market point of view. It's a multi-billion-dollar TAM or SAM and really interesting differentiated tech, but we just couldn't get there or the team couldn't envision working with this individual or individuals over a period of several years.
15:41
Chris Wedding:
Right.
Jason Holt:
Yeah, the team piece, I think you can get to a pretty quick decision on. As I said, secondly, it's market and nothing really earth shattering there. If it's a sub billion-dollar TAM probably, and making realistic assumptions about what kind of market share a particular company is going to get, it's just really hard to realize venture returns when the size of the pie is too small.
On the tech, we really don't start doing super deep dives into things like patents and talking to other subject matter experts until latter stages of diligence, but the quick things we look for is our true competitive advantages, at least some kind of evidence of a moat in the form of patents or trade secrets and the like, just trying to determine if those things exist. Then when we go to the next steps, we'll dive into that and try to come to our own independent opinion about how strong that is. But, I mean, that's it in a nutshell.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah. No, that's super helpful. I think just going back, the team market tech and you clarified in that order, but that's not where you started. I think that's a pretty common thing, whether it's literally a technology, especially even for founders to be obsessed with the product or service we are creating before asking, “Wait, I’m sorry, which customer and how big is this pain exactly?” Yeah, I think sequence matters a lot, doesn't it?
Jason Holt:
Yeah, for sure. We obviously steer clear of the cures in search of a disease.
Chris Wedding:
Right. You also raised an interesting point around coachability and I think about lots of founders, they sometimes fear perhaps that investors will be, well, let's say have too many pieces of advice, but I think as minority investors, the advice is not like do this, but
it’s more, “Based on our experience, here's what we've seen, either it’d be a source of problems or keys to success.” I think about coachability versus how obsessed or visionary a founder might be. I don't know, do those seem at odds ever with this coachability that you're after as a filter for founders?
Jason Holt:
I think like everything, it's a balancing act. You want the person that you're backing to have some conviction about the way their company should be run or about, say, an initial hypothesis about what the business model should be. But as the expression goes, you should only have as much conviction as you have data to support that. And if you find out differently through the course of doing customer discovery, which again is a big reason why we like the discipline of like an I-Corps program for early-stage companies, the customer is your source of that data. So, if you find something that contradicts that initial hypothesis you went out with, you should be very willing to completely ditch that and reformulate.
19:16
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, I've heard the expression that feedback is just data. It's not personal, but boy, having tried this a few times myself, even unconsciously it feels personal. I was on the wrong path. I had a wrong idea. I sold the team the wrong vision. Now, we got to switch. I looked like I had mud on my face.
Jason Holt:
Then there’s the variation of the Mike Tyson quote, which is everyone has a business model until they get punched in the face.
Chris Wedding:
Exactly. Yeah, the fun tweak to that would be, everyone's got a good plan until they get bit in the ear, but we won't go there. Anyway, hey, you mentioned this I-Corps program a couple of times. I wonder if you could just say more about that or maybe just specifically, it sounds like they're focused on customer discovery processes is pretty robust or what else can you add there?
Jason Holt:
Yeah, I don't know how familiar everyone is with the genesis of that, but there's the
program manager at NSF who brought that curriculum in-house there. This is like well over a decade ago now, I think, but, we've known him for many years. Actually, I knew him back when I was in my first startup, and we were getting money from the NSF, but I think it in part it was a reaction to not seeing enough commercial success or outcomes out of companies that they back through SBIR programs.
They have a phase one grant and then a phase two that's intended to take that fraction of companies that were successful with their first grant, help them accelerate progress to market. I think they realized after a number of years that there was not a disciplined path that these companies were following that could help them better understand who their target customers are, what are their pain points, et cetera.
So, over period of years, it became part of the curriculum there and in order to qualify for a phase two grant, or maybe it's a phase two B, I forget the nomenclature, but essentially, you had to go through this program as a prerequisite to receiving phase two funding.
Then there's some things that were early on were prescriptive, I think they might have loosened some of it, but it was like, you need to talk to X number of potential customers or people within your sphere and your partner ecosystem. And only once you've done that, can you actually say you have the data to support your business model hypothesis.
I think that was a positive for most of those companies. I haven't seen the data that you got to pick your figure of merit, but I would guess that many more of those companies that they funded subsequent to implementing this have seen more commercial success.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, I like it a lot. I feel like I've heard some accelerators say, “Yeah, go talk to a hundred potential customers and then tell me how your thesis may or may not change.” Let's switch to you-all's portfolio. How about you maybe tell us a few stories, maybe sample portfolio companies, maybe what led to you-all's conviction, perhaps. Just make it more tangible for folks.
Jason Holt:
There's two in particular that I was thinking of bringing up. One that was probably our very first investment and then a more contemporary one. Actually, the first company that I diligence when I started working with my colleague, Tom, his company called Calista, which make single cell protein from a class of bacteria called methanotrophs that can use methane as their feedstock or their energy source.
23:26
The interesting thing on that company is that that's not actually where they started. It was founded at a time when there was still a lot of hoopla behind biofuels and biofuels 1.0, a lot of subsidies available for companies that were in that space. When the price of oil crashed, this company had to make a pretty substantial pivot and they did so moving into protein. Their hand was kind of forced given what the market dynamics were, but there was also an interesting arbitrage opportunity that presented itself because the price of natural gas, which is the feedstock for these bacteria, that was at a historic low. And conversely, the price of fish meal used in aquaculture for salmon farms and shrimp farms and like, was at an all-time high.
And so, they realized that these bacteria that they were using could be a source of single-cell protein for the aquaculture space. There was plenty of headroom there on margins, given how expensive the conventional source of protein was, and given how cheap their feedstock was. So, that company's seen a lot of traction in that space for salmon and shrimp farms and it's a two for one benefit.
They've got a strong sustainability story behind it, given how they produce that material compared to its conventional counterpart, which in essence, these are feeder fish that are used for making fish meal today. And given that significant spread between the feedstock cost and the price of the conventional fish meal, they can easily undercut the conventional sources while still having pretty healthy margins.
So, it's been a long journey with that company, but they're now, as of a couple of months ago, started production out of their first plant in China. They've got a roadmap to using this same single cell protein source in other even larger markets and pet food and eventually human food.
Chris Wedding:
Wow, that's neat. How do you think that they knew, well, maybe it was obvious, but as you think about that company or other companies in you-all’s portfolio, two questions, I suppose. What percentage do you think have a noticeable pivot in strategy and then what are some indicators, decision points or whatnot? How do you know when it's time to pivot based on, again, not just that company, but others as you go from pre-seed to as they mature, things change?
Jason Holt:
Yeah, that's a good question. I actually saw, I can't remember who put this analysis together, but there was a group that was looking specifically at the cleantech space, and I think this was like a post-mortem of what happened in cleantech 1.0. I recall for the handful of companies that were financed in that period that did see some measure of success or survived all that turmoil, one of the criteria for success was a pivot, at least one pivot.
So, there's a limit to that too. If you did two or more pivots, the outcomes were worse and if you did none, also the outcomes were worse relative to doing one. I think from my vantage point, it just reflects the fact that you're probably going to be wrong about something when you start the company, whether it's the choice of business model or the choice of the first your go-to-market strategy, first like beachhead application. And given that more than half of the companies are going to be wrong about that, I think it follows those that are open-minded and flexible in their thinking to a pivot are going to realize better outcomes.
27:41
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, for sure. I'm also trying to think about where that research was. It's good to watch the data, be honest with yourselves and pivot when you need to, but don't take every piece of data and just keep pivoting. You make no progress in that case. I guess you just start spinning by the visual perhaps.
Jason Holt:
Yeah, and that's where it takes a really unique founder too to be able to sort out the signal from noise. You could be receiving a lot of conflicting feedback from your board and you've got to decide at the end of the day, which paths to take.
Chris Wedding:
For sure. Well, tell us about one more company, what they do and what gave you confidence to invest and then we'll switch to the last portion of our chat here on the personal side, if you will.
Jason Holt:
Yeah. The other company I thought worth mentioning, this is a comparatively more recent investment in the last year, year and a half, is a company called Our Next Energy, or ONE. What they're doing is basically developing a hybrid battery drivetrain for electric vehicles. So, the idea here, which I think was probably counterintuitive to a lot of people when they first started and many of the investors that looked at it, is that despite a lot of the noise in the battery space and specifically batteries for EVs about getting to solid state or getting this single awesome battery that's going to check all the boxes of safety and eliminate cobalt and other supply chain constrained materials and has ultra-high energy density, et cetera. As people that are deep in this space realize, checking all of those boxes with any one battery chemistry is exceedingly hard to do.
So, the real epiphany of this company is realizing that, if you pair two different battery chemistries together, you can actually get significant improvement in a range for electric vehicles. The idea of very high level, which is reasonably well described on their website is you take a base load battery or daily driver battery, if you will, based on LFP, lithium iron phosphate, which is very safe, has many years of cycling of data and it's mass produced in China now. You pair that with a higher energy density battery of which there's a number of them to choose from, but one that doesn't require hundreds or thousands of cycles of lifetime because you're only going to tap into that when you need it for a very long trip.
Say if you're going from San Francisco to LA and if that's the kind of thing you only do once or twice a month, this tandem battery system works quite well and it still can get you to the required warranty period for your EV drivetrain of like eight years or 10 years, something like that. So, it's in contrast to a lot of the deep tech heavy material science opportunities that we've looked at over the years of the battery space. This one is a very pragmatic approach to solving for the same problem because honestly, at the end of the day, the person driving the Tesla doesn't really care what the chemistry is of the batteries underneath or how many different chemistries are present. As long as it meets their criteria for range and gets rid of any perceptions of range anxiety, which some could argue were already there with passenger vehicles.
31:25
You can get a Tesla with 300 plus miles of range, but that becomes challenging as you go to heavier vehicles and the other pain point that they're solving for is getting to long range and some of the heaviest SUV platforms out there. Our company just announced a couple of months ago a deal with BMW aimed at solving that pain point for SUVs. Yeah, really excited about that one.
The other big showcase that they had back in February was retrofitting a Model S and already long-range Model S with their battery drive frame and they were able to extend the range to like 750 miles, even while driving in the middle of winter in Michigan. So, that's a real-world demonstration of this concept.
Chris Wedding:
Wow. It's a big number for sure.
Jason Holt:
Yeah.
Chris Wedding:
Well, cool. Let's switch. As regular listeners know, we take the last three or four questions to go on the personal side, which is not to say who was your eighth-grade sweetheart, but more like this one. What advice, Jason, might you give your younger self to be more effective, happier, fill in the wonderful adjective there?
Jason Holt:
I think in general it would be to have a more regular routine. That's something that fortunately, I have now that I didn't have back then. Maybe all the constraints and the pressures of having a family and all that have necessitated getting into a more regular routine. It's everything from trying to go to bed more or less plus or minus half an hour or 45 minutes at the same time every night, as well as having a pretty regular workout schedule. I think that's the one thing that keeps me sane, making sure that I can go to the gym at least five days a week, even if it has to be at some odd hours.
Then the other key thing, which we've talked about before is meditation. I found that to be a really effective way of flushing out all the junk in my brain for a period of time, allowing me to be less reactive also to the situations and be more reflective on them before taking action.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, there's a quote, I think it's by Viktor Frankl, and it's something along the lines of, we encounter many stimuli and then of course there's a response, but the time between those two, I forget what he says, something like where we decide or show who we really are.
But what I usually feel when I am meditating more regularly is the space between the stimulus in response almost lengthens or seems to lengthen so that I'm able to make a more conscious choice in how to respond versus it being a reflex and maybe not letting the subconscious have a less optimal reflex. Or so others around me would perhaps occasionally say. What does your meditation look like? What does it look like when it's the kind of routine you're after, I guess?
Jason Holt:
The two ends of the spectrum are like a minimum of 10 minutes a day. Usually, I try to squeeze it in the morning before things get too busy and the day's noise has already infiltrated my head. But for a period of time, I was able to do a twice a day, two 20-minute sessions, really early in the morning and late in the day. I definitely noticed when I was able to do that for some extended period of time, feeling just an even higher degree of peace and less reactivity.
35:29
But as is often the case when you fall off of that and go for weeks without having extended sessions, I developed some amnesia about how much better I felt when I was doing that then it removes the impetus to do it again. So, it's always a challenge.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, I feel like whenever I get out of the habit, one of the obstacles is, wow, well, I have to go from zero to 60 miles an hour again, from zero to twice a day, or from zero to an hour or something. And it's like, no, no, just baby steps, baby. Just give me five minutes, give me 10 minutes, give me something besides zero would be great. You mentioned the routine of sleep, what does that look like for you in an ideal day or week?
Jason Holt:
Oh, just trying to get in at least seven. I think eight is pretty challenging. Eight hours challenging most days of the week, except perhaps the weekend, but trying to make sure that that’s more or less the same time of day, somewhere between 11:00 and midnight. I have read some literature on this area, but trying to shift phase and getting in that seven at odd hours or between 2:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. really does something bad to your circadian rhythms.
So, those experiences when I've been a little bit off on those days when things have been out of phase, I can still distinctly remember how that felt. So, I try to keep the sleep hygiene as good as possible and not blasting my rods and cones with blue light from my phone right before going to bed.
Chris Wedding:
Totally.
Jason Holt:
It's also pretty well studied at this point for what it does to you. Can't convince my wife of that, but I'll just pick my battles where I can.
Chris Wedding:
Well, let's just aim to influence thousands of listeners instead.
Jason Holt:
Okay.
Chris Wedding:
Maybe they'll find her. Do I see that maybe you're wearing an Oura Ring?
Jason Holt:
Yeah.
Chris Wedding:
Okay. So, I'm wearing one as well. I'm wearing it in the same spot as well, which my daughter says, “Wait, daddy, is that your new wedding ring?” I was like, “Well, yeah, actually it is.” And she's like, “What?” I was like, “Yeah, it's like multi-purpose,” and this may not be a permanent solution, by the way, for those listeners who were like, “Wow, you are a cold machine-like individual.” I had a titanium wedding ring until a number of folks said, “If you're in an accident, the first responders can't cut titanium, so they cut your finger off if you have swelling.” I was like, “Oh, okay.” Not the Oura Ring to be clear. This was my other titanium ring. Oura Rings, they're electronics, but we digress greatly.
38:26
Jason Holt:
Duly noted.
Chris Wedding:
For any listeners with a titanium wedding ring, super cool, but also super hard, yeah. Jason, are there any other habits or maybe the better question is some book or tools or podcast recommendations that you think other listeners in the climate startups, finance space would like to check out?
Jason Holt:
This doesn't necessarily intersect climate specifically, but it's backed by what we were saying about meditation, the one podcast I listen to with some regularity is Sam Harris' called Making Sense. He studied meditation for several decades and spent some significant time in India as well. I think he's trained as a neuroscientist, so he brings a pretty interesting scientific perspective to all of this, which probably would appeal to climate tech scientists, types or technologists.
It brings a degree of intellectualism and secularism to it that will probably appeal to some scientists who never really thought about starting a meditation practice or thought it was a little too woo-woo. He's definitely not of that ilk, but occasionally he also ventures into things in politics that might brush field the wrong way although he's avowedly not partisan of it. He picks it, he's straight down the middle. I really like listening to that.
Chris Wedding:
Likewise. Well, maybe we'll stop there, with a very functional and down the middle recommendation on that pod. Jason, any final words, calls to action, folks you want to hear from, that kind of thing before we wrap up?
Jason Holt:
Yeah, I'd say the one thing which is probably common sense to folks in the climate tech space, but I'll say it anyway is that every founder in this sector should tear through the inflation recovery act in exhaustive detail and figure out what it means for their business. We've been asking our portfolio companies to do the same, especially the ones that we have in the hydrogen space, which seems like they're going to be major beneficiaries of this legislation. But we've also seen its impacts on companies in the built environment as well, so I think if any companies haven't yet done that, even ones that are very early stage, they should soon. Because I'm sure that will be a topic of discussion with any prospective investors that they'll be reaching out to.
Chris Wedding:
For sure. Yeah, I would just point folks to a good resource on that, the Climate Tech VC folks have an IRA tracker and it's this helpful air table where they go section by section and which sectors benefit and what the incentives are. Anyway, a nice distillation of a very long and wonderful document.
Hey, Jason, we'll call it there. Great to connect and tell the Baruch story. I'd encourage folks to check out you-all’s portfolio companies for jobs, inspiration, and lots more.
Jason Holt:
Thanks so much.
42:00
Chris Wedding:
All right, man. Talk soon.
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