Entrepreneurs for Impact (EFI) Podcast: Transcripts
#87:
Making ESG Investing Easier for $2 Billion — Jay Lipman, President of Ethic
Chris Wedding:
Jay Lipman, Co-founder and President at Ethic, welcome to the podcast, buddy.
Jay Lipman:
Absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
Chris Wedding:
So, folks already know from your accent, the expectations are really high because if you have that accent, you got to be full of insight and wisdom, Jay. So, are you ready to live up to those expectations?
Jay Lipman:
I actually rely on the opposite being true and that the accent buys me a lot more respect than I deserve. It increases my intelligence probably to a passing level. So, let's get cracking.
Chris Wedding:
Nice. Not your first rodeo. I'm not sure what should be said about what used to be a Kentucky accent that sometimes comes out of my mouth. All right. So, we start, of course, with what is the elevator pitch, Jay, for Ethic?
Jay Lipman:
It's a great question and something that continues to evolve as the needs of, I think, some of the problems that we're trying to solve, change. But ultimately, we try to accelerate the global transition to sustainable investing by enabling institutional and individual investors to reflect the issues they are trying to solve in their portfolios. And that can include things like climate change, human rights, racial justice, deforestation, pollution. We seek to do that right now in the US and then eventually globally.
Chris Wedding:
Cool. We're going to come back, of course, to dive deeper into Ethic, but I just would remark that, if folks go to your website, they're going to see in a very visual way how you all personalize this amorphous concept of ESG. I'll just plant that seed for now. We'll come back to it.
All right, the second question we ask to get started is, tell us something you strongly believe in, which might be I believe that dogs deserve treats during podcasts, as I'm watching your eyes, but aside from the pet friend, give us a foundational belief, Jay. Not the strongest, just pick one. Yeah, pick one.
Jay Lipman:
I mean, there's many that have served us very well at Ethic, since we founded the business, but I think one of the ones that goes back to the early founding days, that's helped us build relationships, before we even really deserve to get the help that we got was always seek to add value in any given situation. Everyone has value to offer in some capacity, and that applies to everything that you're doing.
03:54
And so, with a lot of the work that you and I do around climate, I think a lot of people feel somewhat powerless to help in this conversation, to be on the right side of the climate problem. Everyone does actually have a skill set or a value to add to it. And so, in business interactions, it's how can I help this individual on the other side of the room? But with regards to the climate conversation, it's everyone has something they can offer to the fight.
If you're a graphic designer, you can help tell simpler stories about how people can increase their sustainability at home or at work. If you're a technologist, you can implement technologies that aren't currently being used to accelerate the transition to clean energy. There are so many different ways to add value, either to the things you want to see change in the world, whether that's climate issues or within business itself, to help those that you're interacting with. That's always been a core belief of ours, personally and at Ethic generally.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, I like that. It's along the lines of, hey, look, climate tech, however you bucket this, it's not about a single sector. It's across probably every sector. It also reminds me of being at a proverbial cocktail party or aa conference or whatever else. If we're the ones doing all the talking, well, there's no way to learn from others what they could teach us, we just don't know yet. I think that feels similar to what you're saying.
Part of it's, everyone, bring their full selves to solve climate change. The other is maybe a little humility to know that our story, our message, our product, our service is not the only solution, lots of solutions out there to bring it to the fold, huh?
Jay Lipman:
Well, everyone has a superpower, everyone actually does have this unique lever to pull. If you're a comedian, breaking down barriers through humor to talk about climate change, this is one of the things I've been seeing more recently is people in the creative arts realizing they can use that skill set to tell more stories, to get people to connect with this topic that can seem so serious.
No matter what it is that someone has a skill set in, I think that it can be applied to moving the needle on this issue and other issues. And so, always seeking to understand how you can uniquely add value because everyone does have something unique to give. Whether you're good at business, good at sales, good at marketing, good at design, good at comedy, good at humor, that can all be used.
Obviously, you and I are lucky enough to get to work full-time on climate and trying to address it, but more and more, I'm seeing people use these really unique skill sets to be part of the solution and that's inspiring me to see how we can hopefully help more people to realize those skills and to be part of the solution themselves.
Chris Wedding:
For sure. Yeah, another seed I'll plant here along the lines of humor, if folks haven't been on LinkedIn to see you-all's video starring you and your co-founders, making things like ESG more, I was going to say palatable, but understandable, relatable with humor to break some of those barriers down, I'll encourage folks to go check those out.
Let's go to our third intro question here. It’s about your growth, our growth, we're all hopefully growing. Can you tell us a story, maybe it's along the lines of Ethic, a mistake that was made or prior ventures, prior work experience, perhaps mistakes made, lessons learned and how that influences the success you all are seeing at Ethic?
07:20
Jay Lipman:
Yeah, honestly, this is a really good question and does make you think. We've been at this for about seven years now. I think we obviously came into this quite idealistic and thinking, “We're going to try and save the world. We're going to try and use our skill sets for good,” and all of us have these unique mixed backgrounds coming from institutional finance, but also impact, philanthropy, activism, these kinds of things.
The reality, sadly, but also importantly, is that we can't rely on altruism and idealism to solve the problems at the scale we need to solve them. Because the reality is, everyone has a job, everyone has a boss, everyone has to make the numbers work. And if we rely on everyone being incredibly passionate and incredibly excited and incredibly enthused by the problem solving for the sake of solving the problem, we're probably not going to see as much impact as if we come to the table with a decision maker or a CEO or a procurement specialist or whoever it is. We help them to connect the impact with what incentivizes them.
Is it going to drive business results for them? Is it going to help them from a messaging perspective? Is it going to make their employees or their customers more engaged with them? For us at Ethic, we were obviously incredibly passionate early on about driving the acceleration towards sustainable investing. As soon as we started communicating to the gatekeepers of who actually decided what kind of capital gets invested, as soon as we started communicating that in a language of, look, let us worry about the impact, we're going to give you something that serves you. We're going to give you a technology that helps delight your clients because you're going to help them have impact and we're going to communicate the value to you and your teams in the way it's going to help you solve business problems.
We have roughly $2 billion in assets under management in sustainable strategies that cover issues ranging from climate change, deforestation, to gender equity and racial justice. And we've been able to do that by speaking the language of value it's going to add to the individual who makes the decisions on the other side of the table. Because we could go in talking about saving the world. At the end of the day, all the decisions that need to be made need to be made for a business reason as well and we solve these things by connecting the two.
And so, the mistakes very early on we’re going in very hot and saying, “Why wouldn't you do this? This is the right thing to do.” Stepping back and saying, “It may be the right thing to do,” and that person may be very energized, but they're going to have their hands tied if they go to their boss saying that is the reason. Whereas if we give this to them in a language that drives business results while also having an impact, we're going to make everyone a winner here and that is a lot more powerful.
Chris Wedding:
One thing I'll mention is you use the word delight, you-all’s solution to delight, I think your customers' customers. But anyway, I do think that's a fun takeaway from our conversation is, how can you not just create happy customers, but how can you delight the customers? There's a big difference, I think, in those verbs.
10:22
Another thing you mentioned was, you guys have been at this for seven years. I think it's pretty easy for onlookers to say, “Oh my gosh, well, what a cool, not quite overnight success, but overnight success. These guys have got $2 billion of assets under management. I think something like $100 million raised, huge impacts, great press, all the rest.” But what folks don't realize is that's seven years of planting, watering seeds and long hours and sleeping at the office and whatever the case may be. We all know entrepreneurship is super easy.
The other around motivations and using the right language, I think about when I was somehow led in the door to work in private equity years ago during my PhD program, man, I was such an idiot. So naive about motivations and language. Slowly learned after banging my head against the wall for a number of years, where I think about in the solar world, let's say, so many, not mission oriented folks have come, say from real estate development, they know how to develop real assets and they've been successful building low cost, high performing solar project.
It’s easier to think, “Well, they're not like me. They're not in this just for the mission and for the profit.” There are in it a lot for the profit, but it's like, well, we need all sorts of motivations to get this shit built at scale and at the right cost. Anyway, lots of that resonates for sure.
Let's go back into the weeds of Ethic. So, you all are making ESG investing easy for, I think, high net worth for institutions. Tell us more about what you allow your customers to do to translate this pretty heady term that shows up in press releases and my courses at Duke. Anyway, how does your tech make it easier to do the right thing? Mission alignment with their capital, with their retirement funds, but also earning market rate returns?
Jay Lipman:
I'm not sure if you've seen some of the more recent news about ESG being in the headlines, whether it's Elon Musk calling it a scam, or The Economist just came out with a long thing about ESG being deeply flawed and needs to change, that is actually somewhat valid. The idea that there are these ubiquitously universally recognized sustainable businesses, we don't think that's possible.
There is no perfect business that is 100% sustainable. Every business has a trade-off and I think one of the things that we focused on is helping investors to define what sustainability means to them. Because if we as an investment industry come to investors and say, “Hey, here's a selection of businesses that we think are aligned with your values,” that's a one-size-fits-all approach, which is inevitably going to lead to the pushback that we're seeing right now. Which is a lot of investors coming around and saying, “Well, if I think that sustainability is purely climate-oriented, why is this oil company in this portfolio?” Or, well, it may have good ratings on the S and the G in the S and G, but obviously very poor on the E. Why is a company like Tesla not in my portfolio when obviously I think that it is a company that this is as an investor, that they think it is a company that's accelerating the energy transition?
And so, what we have focused on is doing the opposite of what you typically recognize ESG to be doing in that we do not push a narrative about what ESG means. We don't push a narrative – Sorry.
Chris Wedding:
Hey, Jay, we don't need to edit this part out. Some of us have pets or kids, they play with plastic toys.
14:07
Jay Lipman:
He's literally using a squeaky toy. Okay, so going back to our [inaudible – 00:14:10], which is why at Ethic, we focus on giving investors the ability to define what sustainability means to them. And that's what our technology I believe has done so differently is put the onus on the investor to understand, define what issues matter to them.
It can be purely climate oriented, it can be purely emissions oriented, or it can be focused on biodiversity, deforestation, air and water pollution. Or it can be more general looking at the effects of businesses on human rights. It can be looking at governance factors, but by putting the investor in the driver's seat, they become more engaged with that definition, but they also actually feel like this is something that represents them versus something that's one size fits all and they're not really participating in. And so, we have much more a focus on personalization.
The technology that we build is for the financial intermediary, which could be a wealth advisor, financial advisor, institutional consultant. It gives them the ability to help their investors define the issues that matter to them and that has been a big differentiator for us, but also has taught us how to story tell around these issues. Some of these topics are so nebulous and so complex. What is net zero? What is a carbon emission versus a methane emission versus GHG emission? What is CO2e?
We take a lot of pride in simplifying these topics that can be really nebulous or somewhat sensitive or somewhat political for an advisor and enabling them to just tell the story based on the way that the investor or the client is going to engage with it. That has been a really powerful thing about what we've done differently and hopefully succeeded in is focusing on storytelling, making these topics approachable and not daunting. That's enabled us to, we believe, get more people involved in the conversation and to feel like they are actually participating versus just being told what they should believe.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, look, not having a one size fits all is almost always a good thing, customizing. We slash businesses slash buyers are all unique snowflakes, right?
Jay Lipman:
Yeah.
Chris Wedding:
I think it's interesting that you all are selling to the intermediaries, the wealth managers, the investment consultants. Was that always you-all’s approach or did you learn that was the way to get to market at scale again, as you evolved?
Jay Lipman:
It's honestly been an evolution. In the earliest days we thought we'll do everything. We're going to have something that goes straight to consumers as well as something that's institutional, but that very quickly evolved into us realizing that we have an expertise and a specialty in being institutionally centric. That's what our backgrounds are in. That's the technology and the investments we previously built we were institutionally focused. And so, we realized that's our strength. We're going to focus on that and that's what's enabled us, I think, to succeed in the way that we have is that we've been very focused on one very specific subset of investors early on.
17:04
Reality is, in an industry like investment management, the vast majority of assets are held behind institutional consultants, investment managers, fund managers, wealth managers, and we seek to move the lever of the most capital. So, that's what’s led us to focus on that and really build, I wouldn't say build a niche, but continue to build our strength in understanding how to empower that intermediary and help them tell the story.
Because as you know, this topic is just really complex and confusing, and I spend all my time trying to understand it. I'm still Googling how to understand certain topics all the time, even today. We seek to simplify those topics for any individual that has to sit in the room and get asked that question by a client so that they feel confident and comfortable enough to have the conversation, which then leads to way more assets flowing.
So, that comfort and that confidence that we can give that individual in the room, the investment manager, the wealth manager, the financial advisor, that ultimately leads to a lot more impact because then they're able to tell the story and get more people invested in impact solutions.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, I think it's a good illustration or framing for how other entrepreneurs or investors should think about, how do we most quickly get scale for our solution? Clearly, it's the question. Often it is not, let's do everything. It is, maybe let's test in the early months or years which channel, which customer this resonates the most and then double down on that and often picking a fork in the road is not about a sacrifice. It's about being very good at telling the right story to one kind of buyer.
It also makes me think about this idea of, I think it was career advice from Cathie Wood of ARK where she's like, “Hey, find ways to make your boss look smart and guess what? They will love you. They'll see you’re a genius and you will get promoted to the next level.” Anyway, make your customers look very smart so they can achieve their KPIs, ROIs, whatever the case may be.
Jay Lipman:
And that goes back to this idea of adding value, communicating this in terms of getting more people to invest sustainably, we recognized early on, was the individuals that were making the decisions about where assets were flowing were the people that worked with clients. It wasn't about focusing on the impact elements because those are ultimately individuals that have a job. They have to get there. They have to work with clients. They have to keep them happy. They have to maintain that trust and then feeling like they're doing something for the wrong reason, no matter how altruistic it is, is not going to go well for them.
Focusing on how this is going to delight that client, it's going to build more trust. It's going to get them more engaged in the conversation because you're going to build a relationship around the values you share and the fact that you both love nature and you both want to protect animals, and you both love scuba diving and therefore you want to protect oceans, that is what we focus on the whole time. And that has allowed us to build or better our relationships with our clients and help them build better relationships with their clients. So yeah, that's very much been a focus for us.
20:12
Chris Wedding:
Yeah. Can we go back to how complex ESG is, more sustainable investing is? And so, on one hand, you're simplifying with storytelling, but you're also allowing your customers to pick which flavor within the ESG resonates with them. I think about, my path in the world of startups are investing in climate, cleantech, whatever we call it and I always think, “Oh, well, I would make certain decisions as like an energy geek,” but most mainstream folks wouldn't spend the mental effort to figure it out so that they need a simple packaged solution. Not because they're simple, but because their passions are elsewhere, they're busy with whatever else the case may be. How do you all make it personal yet simple? Does that make sense?
Jay Lipman:
If you think about it, this is going to be overly reductive and my team may not enjoy it if I use this analogy, but if you look at a place like Sweetgreen, where you can walk into Sweetgreen and there is a selection of salads you can buy, where they're going to make it for you. You have the ability to change one or two different options or you have the ability to customize everything that you want in that salad.
We think investing should have the same level of flexibility in that, a lot of people will go in and like, “That's my salad I get every day. It's the one they recommend. It's a great salad. It's got all the great ingredients that I know. I know I can watch them putting it together and that's great.” We do that as well.
Well, we have Ethic market themes. We have these strategies that we believe address the primary issues and if an investor comes in, as they very often do, we can give them something that has been vetted and researched by our team to address something like climate or the environmental issues, we can also do that with our partners.
So, if we're working with a wealth manager in New York, we can develop a custom strategy or a salad that is uniquely theirs. It's their strategy, if they can offer to their clients, we can then have someone go completely custom. But the fact that we give that scale of solutions means that everyone is comfortable because anyone coming in knows they're ultimately going to get something that they actually like because it really can reflect the level that the client wants.
Very often people don't want to go completely custom. Very often they come in and say, “Look, I care about climate change. I care about animal rights. I care about nature. I would like something that reflects that, but I don't want to go through everything in a line item with a tooth comb.” And so, we can meet them where they are, which is so important in this conversation because everyone is coming to this conversation from a different point and a different level of expertise.
Some people have watched documentaries, some people have read books, some people have got PhDs like yourself. Some people teach like yourself and we seek to be able to meet people where they are because we feel that that's ultimately going to be a more powerful conversation as well.
The only thing I would add to that is just the way that we do it because what we ultimately build for investors are these direct index portfolios. So, what you would consider an index strategy like an ETF or sometimes a mutual fund that gives you a basket of companies that tracks an underlying benchmark, we create custom versions of that using individual companies to give you what seeks to be the same performance or financial attributes or exposures in a sustainable way as possible.
23:37
And so, that mechanism is what allows us to give that personalization because without the ability to create these separate managed accounts of single companies, we’d have to give everyone the same salad, which would suck because everyone wants a different salad. I go to Sweetgreen a lot because I think it's a great salad, but I always get a different salad every single time I go in. So yeah, hopefully that helps answer that question.
Chris Wedding:
It does. I mean, I hear a spectrum. I hear options within options from simple to almost like pre-made to highly customized, which is great. I've also never heard of Sweetgreen, but clearly, I need to go there.
Jay Lipman:
Well, I'm naively speaking from a very New York centric example.
Chris Wedding:
I figured, yeah. Us country folks down here, we don't know how to spell that even, I tell you.
Jay Lipman:
I should have used a more ubiquitous example.
Chris Wedding:
No, it's good. You're storytelling, Jay. It's great. So, in our last five or 10 minutes, let's switch a little bit from Ethic to Jay. Obviously, we get to have fun working together since you're part of this great Climate Mastermind peer group that we run here, but I want to share some of that with other folks.
Jay, if you had a chance to talk to your younger self, what are one or two tips of advice you’d give the younger Jay to be, pick your adjective, more effective, happier, et cetera?
Jay Lipman:
I'm very bad at a lot of things, as you are probably aware of, having had to work with me in some capacity. I would say I am below par on a significant number of things and I think in your early stages of your career, especially because I went out of college straight into a financial institution, a large organization, Deutsche Bank, in those environments, it benefits you to conform in a lot of ways. In that, there's specific things they want you to be good at to succeed at that early stage of your career, and a lot of those attributes are very valuable attributes, no matter what stage of career you're in.
What I realized was that I was not hired for my given skill set in those things, my given ability to perform those things, but when I arrived, because I was hired because I did well at interviews, I built relationships, I got to know people, I was very passionate about finance and investing from an early age. I've been investing in trading since I was young, but then when I went into the organization, I realized that I spent a lot of time focusing on strengthening my weaknesses. I spent a lot of time focusing on trying to sure up the things that were really, really difficult for me. And so, my dog has found the squeaky toy and so forgive me for the squeak in the background.
Chris Wedding:
It’s all good.
Jay Lipman:
Ultimately, if you spend all your time trying to strengthen your weaknesses, you will ultimately weaken your strengths because that energy that goes into trying to sure up those things that don't necessarily come naturally, they do distract you from the things that you do naturally excel at. For me, I spend a lot of time trying to sure up those things and not really pushing into the things that did come more naturally to me.
27:01
At Ethic, I've been very fortunate to be given the space to do the things that do come more naturally to me, which is connecting with people like yourself, having conversations, building relationships, learning about these topics, talking about these topics and getting people to understand the need for them. If I had continued to spend all that energy trying to get the rest of my skill set up to par, then the things that I really enjoy doing and the things that I feel like I'm relatively good at, I never would have had the energy to actually employ.
And so, that has been the biggest realization for me and I think continues to be the biggest realization because I always wonder, should I spend more time focusing on this, this and this? It’s like, well, no, because it's really important to use the things that you can uniquely do, or at least the things that you feel come most naturally to you because then you're going to continue to want to do them because they don't feel like they're a heavy lift.
Chris Wedding:
Yeah, I love that. I can resonate a lot with that as well. Some of the writing from Tim Ferriss comes to mind where I think the way he put it was, if you're trying to strengthen your weaknesses, you're playing the game of life with addition, if you will. But if you focus on doubling down on your strengths, you're playing life in terms of multiplication. And it's like, which math function do you prefer? I'm pretty sure the multiplication leads to bigger impacts, however you define that, but you're right, we live in a culture where it's the Rudy movie. Look, sure, we can all improve our weaknesses some, but we shouldn't try to make those as strong as our strengths.
I mean, for those listening, the books like StrengthsFinder or StandOut, where you get these great 20-minute tests, plus a book to figure out, to be reminded, let's say, of some of these strengths was very validating for me when I first took those, and I just recommend them like crazy. How about, what are some habits, routines, Jay, that keep you healthy, focused, and sane?
Jay Lipman:
I think this is probably the same thing you're going to get told from a lot of people, but I was lucky when we founded the business to start my mindfulness practice early on. And so, I was in my early 20s, mid-20s maybe, when I started to regularly take that time out, just to give myself some mindfulness and time away from the day. It gave me a level of perspective, but also separation from my own emotions. That the early stages of building a business are essentially, in our experience at least, an exercise in being told no many, many times.
And thankfully, due to mindfulness at least, I never internalized those nos as something that we were doing wrong. It was always, oh, well, that investor may not have had a good day. That investor may not have got enough sleep. Not taking those things personally and always recognizing that we were on the right path.
30:02
Being informed by directional challenges and something structurally wasn't right, but I do think it was meditation that allowed me to just maintain the path when things got really tough. We had a lot of investor meetings before we got venture investing and the reality is, thankfully, the market has turned and sustainability and climate, these themes are really rich and supported in investing, especially in venture investing now, in a way that they weren't as developed in 2016, 2017 when we were raising those early funds.
And so, thankfully, investors participating in this market aren't going to encounter the level of skepticism that we saw, I hope. But those skills that I developed through mindfulness allowed me to have the resilience and the separation from the environment to allow us to really keep the faith and keep pushing forward.
Chris Wedding:
Well, clearly, I agree with that practice. For me now that it's summer, there's a little more time to have a stronger mindfulness practice. When it comes to all the no's, thinking about a conversation I had recently with one of your peers, another CEO member of our peer group, and they said, “Look, we just got a term sheet close to a hundred million dollars, but it was the 111th investor who said yes after a lot of nos.” Just often quick no's or even worse very slow no's. So, that separation is critical. Maybe in our last minute here, Jay, any books, podcasts, resources, tools you'd recommend folks pick up?
Jay Lipman:
There’s actually a new book that I've been reading and reading is a generous term to say it, but I'm looking at it now, it's called Things You Can Do. Especially if you have children that are old enough to read, it's a beautifully designed book to help tell the story of things we can do in our own lives around reducing our own climate impact.
For me, so much climate literature has been so dry and so depressing for so long that for someone to come out with something highly design-centric, beautiful, and really capture the storytelling necessity that we need in order to get people behind this has been a really powerful book. So, Things You Can Do.
Then all the Paul Hawking books, Drawdown, Regeneration, I have 10 copies at my home, I have 10 copies at the office because I try to give it to everyone. It's my bible and I think it's just the most important literature over the last decade. Yeah, those are always my books and people at the office try to get me to shut up about Drawdown and Regeneration, but I refuse.
Chris Wedding:
Well, I see a repeating theme in both those books, which is optimism, solutions focused and again, couldn't agree more. The title to my newsletter this morning was something along the lines of doom and gloom are not the way to mainstream climate solutions. That was how I learned this stuff was environmental science degree many, many years ago, but boy, I was a total buzzkill at parties. “Do you know where that hamburger came from?” Blah, blah, blah. It's got to be about solutions.
Jay Lipman:
Honestly, and there's definitely people that are going to have different opinions about this, I think one of the most important pieces of content that I've consumed in the last decade is the documentary Game Changers. I'm not sure if you've seen it, but it's a documentary on veganism, but there's been a million documentaries on veganism that talk about why there's a moral imperative not to eat meat.
33:47
For a long time, I watched those and I ate meat and I watched the documentaries and I was like, “I feel bad, but I'm still going to eat meat.” Then I did end up cutting out meat five, seven years ago or something, but it was Game Changes that I watched and it focused on, look, the moral imperative is what it is. The best athletes in the world—
Chris Wedding:
Oh yes.
Jay Lipman:
…have gone vegan.
Chris Wedding:
Yes. I've seen that.
Jay Lipman:
It's the same as the Tesla argument. Tesla didn't come out and get everyone to buy an electric car because they built an electric car. They built the sexiest, fastest, most efficient, best car, fastest car, broke all the records, drag racing against Lamborghinis, destroying them. If you want the best car, you buy a Tesla. If you want the healthiest diet, veganism might be right for you and that argument, I think, is crucial to climate. Yes, there's reasons to do it because it's the right thing, but with a heat pump, heat pump is going to save you money. Why would you want to spend more money? Go get a heat pump.
I love the notion that we can get people to align their own self-interests with the right thing and that I think is how we have the biggest impact. That's where I get excited because that's what we try to figure out at Ethic is like, how do we drive the most impact by getting people to do what they want to do, but not having to change behavior too much.
Chris Wedding:
Well, excellent. I'll just give a quick shout-out to a fellow mastermind member in our peer group, Lauren Salz at Sealed who makes this easy for home owners to get heat pumps. Also, just note that my new heat pump is being fixed right now and so I'm realizing the benefits of what you're describing as well.
Hey Jay, fun to share our conversation with others. I think what Ethic is doing is really inspiring. Great to see the traction. We're rooting for you-all’s success, man.
Jay Lipman:
Thank you, Chris. Man, I appreciate it being on and yeah, I look forward to hearing the finished product.
Chris Wedding:
Hear, hear.
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36:21
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